Curse

elorei · May 22, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

well, apparently all those that havent been through the grinder of trying to get elites feels this is a grindless game. most of those that have tried to find a certain skill think the grind is bad.

i doubt either side is going to see it from the other perspective. that said, ill be smiling inside when all of the "there is no grind" people get out of pre-ascension and find themselves facing the thing we have been complaining about. i have a feeling many tunes will change.

and sniper, im deeply sorry for you. i hope in time you can find a game that isnt a job for you. hopefully you will find a game that is just fun.

PieXags · May 22, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Not another one of these threads, not another one. I can't take another one.

*curls up in bedsheets*

Adaria · May 22, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

My thoughts exactly... I have yet to find where Glyph of Elemental Power is sold at so... yeah, waiting to find that one...

Anyway back to more important things...

Aria · May 22, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by QTFsniper

you CAN jump in and play and be competative. If you want that little extra bonus, work for it.

Competitive in what sense? I doubt that any of the top guilds on the GvG ladder will disagree with me when I say that at the very top of the competition, *any* and all advantages, no matter how small, matter. Sure, a team with more skill will always win over a team with less skill regardless of the weapons, runes and items, but when the curve pretty much plateaus out at the top of the competition, the measure of player skill becomes that much narrower between two teams. Hence, items AND the number of skills you've unlocked become a huge determining factor.

On a level playing field, it will be player skill that remains as a huge determination of who will win. However, because of the huge amount of time needed to get to that level playing field (necessary runes unlocked, all the skills available, item mods unlocked, etc), what we're ending up with is scenarios in which team A has farmed 200 more hours than team B, and thus beats team B.

Items do count a great deal because they are what you need in order to be competitive at that level. If I don't spend 200 hours getting all possible elites, I won't have the flexibility to adapt quickly to opposing builds, and with that as a crutch, I'll lose. What is at the heart of my grind argument is that I do not want to spend over 500 hours in order to reach that level playing field. Jump in and be competitive with an all-premade team? Have you tried that, honestly? Or, jump in and be competitive without any elites?

I'm willing to put time into it. 200 hours is no problem, and I'm nearing 300 total logged hours at this point. However, the fact that I don't even have 1/3rd of the items and skills necessary to arrive at that "level playing field" with about 200 hours is ridiculous. Sure, it's fast if one is only looking at the game to satisfy a PvE standpoint, but for those who see PvE as preparation for even starting to practice in serious PvP, such an investment is staggering.

Yes, I'm still waiting for ANet's solution to this problem, but this is part of the explanation of why I can't stand the "you can still be competitive without grinding" arguments. 600 hours is grind, and unless you mean competition by random matches in arena, those items, runes, skills and elites mean *a lot* more than you think.

elorei · May 22, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adaria

My thoughts exactly... I have yet to find where Glyph of Elemental Power is sold at so... yeah, waiting to find that one...

Anyway back to more important things...

i guess this was sarcasm? you are waiting to find it because its not buyable?

is this what you are getting at?

try port sledge.

if you were being sarcastic, wow, you sure look like a dumbass now. if not, and you REALLY were waiting to find it, i hope this info is of some help.

Khrysyl · May 22, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

While it may not be grindless (that depends on your definition I guess) it certainly is a game where you only have to grind as much as you want to.

I also find it rather strange that some people have this idea that they have to have elites (some even feel they have to ahve all elites, all runes, and all enhancements) to be competitive. That is just so much nonsense! I'm sorry if that offends, but it is the truth.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can be competitive at any level. I could be, you can be, anyone can be, so long as they compete at their level.

One of the facts of life with RPGs (and this is an RPG, a CoRPG according to A.Net) is that characters progress, some characters are higher than others and have more abilities, skills, etc. We all have the choice though, we can compete in PvP at the level we find ourselves, or we can wait until we have reached the absolute pinnacle of development and uber-skill possession before PvPing. It is the choice of the individual though, and not something imposed by A.Net

So, go out, enjoy the PvP that you can participate in today (I know I will be soon enough) and don't worry about being at the very top from day one. Only one person (or team) can be at the top, and in a competitive game, it is not likely they will be able to stay there for long. Peace.

edit: corrected spelling errors induced by dyslexic fingers, did I miss any?

Corwin_Andros · May 22, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

It all boils down to your definition of grind compared to Anet's. You can jump right in out of the box and be competative because you can have a lvl20 character with the highest level armor and basic weapons and even an elite skill if it is in the pre-made builds. With that you can go into the tombs and COMPETE. Win?.. sometimes..Not all the time.. On the same level as the "elite" or top 10 guilds without a lot of extra time and work.. No way.. But you still can compete and be competative to a good degree.. You don't have to take 6 months to make level 20 in order to jump in the ring with these top players.. It takes 5 minutes from the time you install the game.. ergo.. no grind or time to COMPETE.. Being competative in the top wrung of the ladder is a whole different matter entirely.

If anyone has interpreted ANet's statements as saying you can jump from the cradle of not owning the game to the olympics of the top 10 percent of players without any kind of work or effort.. I'm thinking you are a victim of your own making for thinking so.

Adaria · May 22, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

No, I wasn't being sarcastic, I don't DO sarcasm online because it's close to impossible to tell sarcasm from normal speech like you were having trouble with...

Port Sledge? Never heard of, or found that place yet.

Mav · May 22, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginko

To be quite honest, I think that's bullshit. I believe the Signet of Capture system is intelligent and good. It's far greater then handing out skills to people.

--Ginko

In theory it's a great ability, and way to gain skills.

In reality it's piss poor. They simply changed venues for grinding. Instead of level grinding, you are skill and item grinding to even have a fair chance at PVP.

M Dew · May 22, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

It took me about the same amount of time to get the boss to finally spawn for Shield of Judgement. In the end tho it was definately worth it.

Kirb · May 22, 2005, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

If anyone has interpreted ANet's statements as saying you can jump from the cradle of not owning the game to the olympics of the top 10 percent of players without any kind of work or effort.. I'm thinking you are a victim of your own making for thinking so.

Well said. My thought exactly.

May 22, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

people still think Elite skills are called elite skills due to rarity? sad

Shadow_Avenger · May 22, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin_Andros

My own definitions for farming and grind go as follows:

FARMING = Repetative actions (ie.. same mision, quest, specific zone) for things you simply WANT to have.

GRIND = Repetative actions for things you NEED to have.

That being said..Infusion Runs are a grind because you NEED to do them 5 times in order to be fully protected.. Anything less is about suicidal.

Looking for runes or elite skills is farming for me at least. Some hardcore PvP person may believe that they just can't do their thing without a specific rune or skill.. so for them it is a grind.

Elites, Runes, and Upgrades are certainly nice things to have, but I get along just fine without them so far. If there happened to be a reliably good place to farm some of these things I MIGHT do it for a little while. But I have yet to see any item or skill in this game that I just couldn't live without. I certainly would never be desperate enough for any single skill or wanna-have item that I'd waste nine hours trying to get it. The game is balanced enough that you are not really in a hole without having every single thing available at your fingertips.

With the excpetion of the infusion thing. any grinding or farming any of us do is completely by choice. None of it is necesary to play effectively.

If you read the armour FAQ you will find DD spells effect the chest, so in effect you could probably get away with the infuse run once, as long as you infuse chest armour.

Zorlag · May 22, 2005, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Some elites are far better than their non-elite counterparts. For my mesmer I recently got Energy Drain. Oh boy, that sure made my energy management easier.

Energy Tap < Energy Drain (ED drains more, casts faster, recharges faster)
Energy Burn < Energy Surge (same stats but ES is AoE damage)

and so on. So I'd say to be competitive on the arena you'd want at least 2-4 elites to strengthen your builds. Right now some elites are really easy to get and others are total pain. I especially hate randomly spawning bosses. If it wasn't enough I slugged through wilderness and several enemy teams, I also have to get lucky with having right boss spawning and that aforementioned boss actually USING the skill (and using it so that no enemy interrupts me while I'm at it).

Fantras · May 22, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Thanks alot for bringing up this dust covered turd which was laid on the side of the road a while ago. Hopefully for you this will bring you all the "31337" stuff you "need" to compete without having to lift a finger. Good luck in your endeavours, because they most likely only occur outside the game.

M Dew · May 22, 2005, 10:22 AM // 10:22

yesterday was not awhile.

Unless I am missing something.

Anarchy 2k · May 22, 2005, 10:50 AM // 10:50

I just simply wanted to point out that character progression in this game is limited to HALF of the game. PvP character have no progressions. There is no explorable areas, missions, or ways to unlock itmes outside of tombs (one random drop every 10 minutes at HoH.)

You CANNOT unlock runes in HoH, and you CANNOT unlock skills there either. PvP "progression" is null. There is none, so stop arguing that PvP characters have progression.

Now, if they removed the PvP creation, that would be forced progression... but that would COMPLETELY go against what they are saying. There is no character progression for PvP characters, again. The only Progression there is, is RP characters who have done the game once or more already, and are hoping that they can get through the 2nd time quicker.

I have to say personally, that I finally ascended my lvl 11 ele/nec, and I am about to spend around 50+ hours to explore areas and gather the quests to unlock skills for both professions. (This estimation is saying I don't waste my time fighting my way through and just run and do whatever is necessary to get each area as quick as possible.)

After finding all thouse quests, I must complete them. I've already done them once, so why do I have to do them again if all I want to do is experiment with the all the skills those classes have when I've beaten the story? (I'm talking about characters that beat Hell's Precipece, which this has not done, but my other has and I still am missing around 12 or so warrior/monk skills total with around 240 hours of gameplay.)

Character Progression? NO! I want to PvP with a necromancer, not RP with it! That's what we're calling for, not a way to diversify our current RP characters, but allow the PvP characters to have something that allows us to not have to go through the storyline meaninglessly a 2nd, and 3rd time, just to do what we want to do. To give us what we need (yes, I'd like to play something other than a minon master in PvP,) in order to switch up our skills and test them in battle.

I'm honestly sick and tired of people saying that this game is about character progression, when it's about personal skill progression. Later in this game, you learn how great teams can decided wether a mission is won or lost. This is basic training for PvP. Yes, there's some character Progression in there, but we're forced to do it multiple times and "gain" skill we already aquired the first time...

THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE! HAVING TO LEARN TO DO WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW HOW!

I'm done now. Thanks for playing.

(EDIT: Infusion once brings the damage down to 40, and 4 pips of degen i'm probably wrong there. twice, i dunno... same about 3 and 4, but 5 = 4 damage and one pip of degen. alot better than one infused.)

Flame · May 22, 2005, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarchy 2k

That's what we're calling for, not a way to diversify our current RP characters, but allow the PvP characters to have something that allows us to not have to go through the storyline meaninglessly a 2nd, and 3rd time, just to do what we want to do.

They have that. It's called Explorable Areas. You can run straight from Yak's Bend to Gates of Kryta. Don't like Gates of Kryta? You can run around it to Lion's Arch. You can run from there to Druid's Overlook, to Quarrel Falls, to Ventari's Refuge, to Denravi. You aren't forced into any of the storyline before Ascension, and even then you can just skip the whole Crystal Desert by using Lornar's Pass.

Khrysyl · May 22, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

A number of players that I have talked to have expressed a desire for an "Unlock All Skills" button, or a different system with a similar effect.

But unless A.Net decides to completely change the concept of GW that will not happen. Why? Because A.Net has stated that GW is one game, not two, and that they have no intention to separate them.

And including something like UAS would do just that, separate the game into two, even if they ran on the same server, there would be two games. One game would be the PvE game where you create a character, advance it to level 20, and then repeat the process. This would be horrible for PvE players because there would be no reward for reaching level 20, just a deadend. The other game would be the PvP game where you create a character, click the UAS button, and enter the PvP arena with all of the skills of every PvP character ever created. Any system similar to UAS would separate GW into two different games with no connection to one another.

I could be wrong, but I don't see this happening. This is not the game A.Net intended, and this is not the game A.Net created.

jdwoody · May 22, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I finally got Word of Healing, it didn't take any skill just lots of time running the left half of Elona over and over again until the boss showed and actually used the skill...

The good thing about running that 13 times is I had plenty of minotaur horns to give to guildmates so they could get better gauntlets...